Conversations with a (non) Vegan: disconnect, dissonance and excuses

In these posts I offer an open and honest insight into real life conversations I've had with non-Vegans.

I feel the need to analyse how I talk to and approach non-Vegans because I want to improve the way in which I communicate with other humans all the time... I'm never arrogant enough to think I know it all.

So I add this here as a learning tool for me and for anyone else who's interested.

This conversation was held a couple of months ago - there are many changes I would make, and have made, to my approach since! 
Hindsight is wonderful, continuous improvement is imperative :)

But, as always, I welcome your thoughts, constructive feedback and suggestions - for this is how we learn to get positive debate started and to open hearts and minds. Thank you.

Much love Chantal xx

DM convo on Twitter (transcribed word for word)

non-Vegan

me

what I could have added with hindsight

thoughts

[I had just followed this person on Twitter]

Thank you for the follow, i'm afraid I'm not a vegan but love salad!!! : )

thats ok! i follow non vegans too! u might even find we eat a lot more than salad and you're tempted?!

although if you love animals - you know what i might say to you dont you??!!

Yes i know what you're going to say!! I do love animals you can see how much by my piccies of my [dogs] : )

(aw yes beautiful) but you don't love all animals though..... :(

What do you mean not all animals?

well you love your dogs, but don't love other animals because u still eat them, use products from them?

Not necessarily, i do love animals, i eat them but it doesn't mean i don't feel guilty[C1] . I refuse to buy purses, coats, etc made from animal

aww i can understand that hun - i used to feel the same - thats why i did eventually make that change, first veggie, finally vegan... it took me a little time - but i cant tell u how much better it made me feel - partly because of that guilt,... when i knew what really went on with farming and products it kind of shocked me into it... :(

Don't get me wrong it's not something i don't agree on - being a veggie/vegan but my argument stems from our ancestors ate meat that they Had to fight/hunt for. If they wanted veg they'd eat that too as part of a staple diet. But animals themselves are foragers of meat too And some animals eat us humans too[C2] . There's no one out there telling them not to eat us. I don't think the WAY animals are killed for our Consumption is right nor fair but it happens[C3] . In fact theres some veg that I don't like eg; peppers, mushrooms, leek etc. so I'd starve if I didn't eat meat[C4] . If it helps i make sure the meat i eat isn't imported but it's from our soil. So that way i know that they've been Slaughtered "fairly[C5] "

wow - um define slaughtered fairly? Sadly there can be no such thing... r humans murdered fairly? Location makes no difference.

I tweeted u some info... unable to link here [viva: Cruel Britannia video]

I understand all of the history & arguments ppl make for eating meat - at the end of the day we dont NEED to eat it to survive these days so therefore - why would I? I prefer not to. And when u take it away the choice of foods actually opens up! there is so much u CAN eat! :)

[plus science proves its killing us early and meat, dairy, egg industries are destroying the environment]

Okay i take back the last statement, fairly wasn't the correct word, when i said that i meant humanely perhaps? Not beaten up then throat  Slit, i also don't agree with battery hens but yes I do still eat chickens[C6] . But as a meat eater there is probably a fine line between what I think is right for me as a human and what veggie's say is right. But i will defend my right to eat meat, as it is my choice. I'm sorry If that offends people that's not what im here to do.

[why are you sorry if you think you are doing the right thing?][Is it really a choice if you are being told to eat it by society, farming industry, clever marketing?]

killing can never be humane - intensive farming & slaughter methods r horrific - please watch that video and you'll see

well u say its 'your right' but what about the rights of other species? u dont offend me - i was YOU two years ago...!!

Yes other animals have a right [C7] but one voice alone is not going to stop the world killing/abusing animals[C8] . I'm not selfish but tbh i don't  Eat loads of meat i do love pasta too. But i'm not going to stop eating meat, idk why I'm just not going to stop it.

ah but if everyone used the 'one voice alone cant do anything' then nothing would change for the better! individuals end up forming a collective! more and more ppl are choosing to look at things differently and its so much easier these days.. so many gr8 alternative products 

i'll leave you in peace now! lets just say you know where i am if u want 2 discuss more!! :) im always happy 2 help & can share info

I've seen that video b4 and as much as it makes my blood boil i'm not going to take meat out of my diet. In fact where i live there is a Massive pig farm and the pigs are free range with their shelters it's v refreshing to see. I'm sorry if i've offended/upset you. 

[if you’ve seen that video how can you say that buying British is a guarantee of ‘more humane’ slaughter?]

---

 [C1]So u know its wrong?

 [C2]Which ones? Not many? And to survive or protect, but we don’t need to do that

 [C3]Again, u show you know its wrong

 [C4]Really! There are ##types of veg, ##types of salad ##types of grains & I can show u 365 b’fasts, lunches & dinners u could enjoy!

 [C5]Contradicts above – I don’t think its right or fair

 [C6]Hence the guilt?

 [C7]So don’t take that away from them

 [C8]But u could save ### animals a year just on your own!

When a non-vegan says they feel guilty for eating meat this is a clear admission of the fact that they feel it's ethically wrong. The fact that this lady said she avoids other animal products shows just what a strong disconnect people have with their food and just how ingrained our cultural norm for eating meat is. What then followed were classic examples of excuses and justifications for eating meat (cognitive dissonance) - 'our ancestors did', 'humans are meant to hunt', animals eat 'humans', 'consumption happens anyway', 'I don't like some veg so I'd starve',  etc. The arguments of starvation without meat continue to prove how little people understand of the Vegan diet and all of the possibilities for varied healthy eating within it. Messages about this still haven't got through to people successfully.

What was also evident here was the belief that British meat is more 'fairly' reared and slaughtered - hence continued lack of knowledge and also justification for actions.

Interestingly, this lady went on to acknowledge that animals have rights but again reverts to a justification 'one person can't make a difference' i.e. the peer pressure prevails - proving it's easier to go with the majority. But again she tries to allay some of her guilt by saying that she 'doesn't eat much meat'.

End thoughts:

You'll see that I ended the conversation first on this occasion. This is because whilst I knew I had put some logical counter-arguments to her, I felt that I'd pushed too far and that she'd reached a point of becoming defensive of her actions to me.

2 hours later I received this message:

Hi again. You took Me by surprise this eve. I know you've got a point to put across, i appreciate that but my opinions are still my own : ) having said that, you have made me think

I didn't reply - because I felt that this lady had now actually reached a point of reflection. Studies show that for someone to fully absorb an important message they need to hear it 7 times. I think this lady is probably mid way in that set of messages. And even if I can help one person to think differently next time they tuck into a roast pork dinner or pass that field of 'happy' pigs then I know I'm doing my bit to contribute to those 7 vital times of hearing something important.

I note she stopped following me - because the truth is hard to bear and I know my timeline will make difficult reading for many non-Vegans.

But I also know that I was her just two years ago and that people can change once they are given a chance and the truth of what's really going on out there is presented to them. 

Every conversation is an important one. So I'll keep trying my best.

Chantal D-H has studied psychology as part of her dual degree studies at MSc level and has 21 years experience of communications/team/people management in diverse customer-facing environments.

Paws for thought: Destination Vegan? My journey to veganism.

Destination Vegan?

The journey; My journey . . .

 

For a few brave people – switching to a vegan diet and lifestyle is something that they throw themselves into pretty much overnight.  And if you are an ‘all or nothing’ character this may well be the best way for you.

For me, however, it was a little different. When I look back now, I see a gradual awakening that saw me progressing through a 5 year evolution from confirmed carnivore to veggie to vegan - where I am, very happily, now.

Pretty much over those 5 years I progressed through the stages of being an ‘ethical’, ‘organic’, ‘welfare-conscious’, ‘meat-free Monday’ consumer.

I read labels incessantly and knew that processed foods were laden with a whole host of alien ingredients that I simply didn’t want to consume. I cooked most meals from scratch and became increasingly aware of the widespread use of drugs and pesticides in food production and manufacture.

But I was still a consumer of meat, fish and dairy none-the-less. So just what was it that made me first decide to give up meat and fish for good?

Two things:

  1.  My best friend of 33 years being diagnosed with cancer.

  2.  Caring for some ex-battery hens.

Two starkly contrasting things; but, as I was to find out later – possibly inextricably linked…

Sally (pictured here on the left with me) had been my best friend since the age of 7. She was the type of friend who knows you better than you know yourself. We shared everything and she was a complete and utter joy to be around – one of life’s true beautiful angels.

When she got the diagnosis we both frantically researched, looking for answers as to why this had happened and how she could be helped, perhaps through a change in diet? She went organic, gave up her beloved Chardonnay, started on fennel juicing and having read the China Study, quit beef and dairy foods too.

But try as we might, and despite a double mastectomy and 2 rounds of intensive chemo she succumbed to secondary cancer of the liver and lungs and died within 6 weeks of being given that terminal diagnosis.

Nothing could have prepared me for the complete devastation I felt at losing her – particularly so young and in her prime. Even writing this now, two and a half years on, it’s almost unbearable to think of and I need to stop and wipe tears away. I miss her every day and always will.

In the months that followed I became obsessed with finding answers as to why this had happened to her. I resumed my MSc studies (formerly Health Science and latterly Weight Management) and read / surfed avidly. And, as is the way when you start internet research, I followed a trail that got deeper and deeper until it ultimately led me to uncover some very shocking truths about the way in which animals are farmed for food.

Of course I knew animals died in order to provide us with food – how can you not? But like so many of us, I believed it was a health necessity and a natural part of our culture to eat meat. I’d been victim to those oh-so-clever marketing tactics and I’d conveniently (blissfully) been ignorant to the way in which animals are treated as commodities.

What I found, sure as hell, ‘woke’ me up. This is not the place for the graphic details. But you should, in all conscience, take a deep breath and do some simple online searches. It is the stuff of nightmares, but if you consume the ‘products’, then you should know and understand what happens to create them. One word always echoed in my head: ‘sentient.’

sentient

Pronunciation: /ˈsɛnʃ(ə)nt/

adjective

• able to perceive or feel things:she had been instructed from birth in the equality of all sentient life forms

And, as if to bring that word to life, at the same time I adopted 4 ex-battery hens through the British Hen Welfare Trust. (It was at the time when the campaigning to improve welfare standards for chickens was running and it seemed like a lovely thing to do.)

It turned out to be an act with far reaching consequences because each and every day as I watched these poor de-beaked, de-feathered ‘egg machines’ blossom into the hens that they were meant to be, I saw personalities emerging, and witnessed intelligence, logic, emotion – the full range infact. And by January 2012 I’d seen and experienced enough. I became vegetarian and began to change all my household and toiletry / beauty products from not only organic and eco friendly, but to containing no animal-derived ingredients and never tested on animals. I vowed never to buy any leather products, feather filled products, wool, silk or fur ever again, and to shun the use of animals in ‘entertainment’ settings.

I now knew that as well as for reasons of health, I no longer wanted to eat meat or fish and use animal based products, because I could no longer contribute to industries that were based on pain, suffering, exploitation and ultimately, murder.

I knew instantly I’d done the right thing. I worried that the change might be tough – but I worked my way through the plethora of meat substitutes on the market, tried hundreds of exciting new recipes I wouldn’t have dreamt of before and continued to research into it all.

But a year down the line into my new and ‘improved’ lifestyle (which still included eggs and dairy), I wasn’t feeling well at all (either physically or mentally). I had gained a lot of weight, was suffering with constant back problems, joint pain and swelling and migraines. I was bitterly disappointed that my diet didn’t seem to be that healthy for me and I was also still losing sleep over something that just wasn’t ‘right’. 

I couldn’t put my finger on it and at the time I attributed it to my ongoing bereavement depression over losing Sally.

But then another pivotal thing happened…

I watched 2 YouTube videos:

One called ‘A calf and a half’ about milk production at one of Cadbury’s dairy farms.

And the other a lecture by an animal rights activist called Gary Yourofsky.

That same afternoon I attempted to watch Earthlings, got 22 minutes in – to the point where a stray dog is thrown into a garbage truck (alive) and I pretty much had a breakdown. I cried for hours.

That was it for me.

No more dairy, no more eggs, no more ignorance.

I knew that for so many reasons I needed to follow a vegan diet AND a vegan lifestyle. This wasn’t a choice as such – it was an absolute compulsion, and as I’ve heard it described by others since – a ‘moral obligation and an imperative’.

Hand on heart, the day I became Vegan, I felt an actual sense of relief and everything in my life fell into place. I saw the world, I see the world, with very different eyes.

Some of that relief I believe, comes from an innate ‘knowing’ (that I’m sure all humans have, deep down), that using and eating other species, is, quite simply, morally wrong.

It is wrong because it isn’t necessary for our survival, in fact in most ways, as I’d also discovered, it’s detrimental to our survival. It’s scientifically proven that consumption of animal products contributes to modern diseases such as T2 Diabetes, Heart disease, Obesity and Cancers. Its decimating our wildlife and destroying our beautiful planet. But above all, it inflicts unimaginable suffering and pain on our fellow species - who can think, feel and hurt, just as humans do. 
*ALL species have the absolute right to live a peaceful existence on this planet.

Becoming vegan made me feel like shouting a million clichés – 'the penny had dropped', 'the cloud had lifted', 'I’d seen the light' etc. and this is something that you hear repeatedly when others share their story of why and how, they too, became vegan.

The destination…

Well what can I say?

Quite simply. I have yet to find ANY negatives.

I thought I’d miss milk, but there are multiple alternatives that suit all different culinary needs.

I thought I’d miss cheese, but knowing how milk is produced meant that nothing could ever taste as good as the alternative - compassion – felt (and the faux products are improving all the time).

I thought it would be hard to find things to eat, but it turns out that with a different mindset to cooking my food repertoire is now a million times more exciting (read my blog and you’ll see!)

I thought it would be hard to find non-animal derived products – but man is as clever as he is stupid and we’ve invented / manufactured all kinds of goods that don’t rely on animals to make them.

I thought I’d be joining a cult of 'hippy weirdoes' (apologies dear hippy friends) and labeled as a freak – but instead I found an incredible new family of consciously compassionate people only too willing to help me on my vegan journey.

And I’ve even been able to educate and inform friends, family, and people I meet about what it means to be a modern vegan in today’s society and the multiple benefits of its actions. If it’s a label then it’s one I’m very proud to wear.

But what of my health?

I’ve lost 12kg without dieting. My BP & cholesterol are below average readings and couldn’t be better. Genetically, I have inherited sickle cell trait (characterised by anemia - iron deficiency) and yet my iron levels and B12 levels are up since becoming vegan (much to my GPs amazement, because this is sometimes an area for concern with vegans). My joint pain, foot pain, back pain, hand pain, migraines and general malaise have all disappeared. I no longer have PMT that makes me want to kill others and then myself.

My skin has improved (no more hand dermatitis or facial spots), my hair is glossier (rarely do I need to wash it, apart from to remove environmental pollution), I need far less sleep, have far more energy, better cardio fitness and mentally – well I’m ready to take on the world!

I am left feeling incredible - physically and in my heart, conscience and soul.

Yes, I wish I’d done it years ago and in a way I wish I’d done it more quickly too.

But, I also know that, for me, this gradual evolution has taken me to a point where, no matter what, I will categorically never revert to my former way of living.

But like I’ve said at the beginning of this piece, if you have a mind to, then going from 'carnivore' to vegan overnight CAN be done. And I personally would advocate not going through a vegetarian transition phase – because, in my opinion, there is a tendency to then over-consume dairy products – which are amongst the worst possible for human health.

Just jump right in to veganism and ask the questions later! You won’t be disappointed, because I can assure you that the positive physical and emotional impact will be immediate. 

It will be the best, and most important life change you ever make – for YOU as a human, for THEM - the other animals and for US as custodians of a planet that’s gradually being destroyed for our blood lust.

So if you’re already vegan you may identify with some aspects of my story here and I’d love to hear how it was for you. Please either comment or get in touch.

If you’re not vegan – then you have the potential to be, because you’re reading this and that shows both curiosity and compassion. I'll gladly help you should you decide you'd like to try this kinder life. Again, please get in touch.

Try the vegan experience for World Vegan Month. 

One month. 

See how you feel.

I’ve added lots of info to this site to help you on YOUR journey.

Find:

More great recipes that you ever imagined here.

Vegan product ideas here.

Research on ‘why’ vegan here.

Helpful films here.

Interesting books to read here.

Events to attend here. 

Where to eat, where to stay.

and the fun stuff here!

Travel with us. 

It may be a slightly trickier journey at first – 

but the destination is completely amazing.

Chantal x

Dedicated to the best friend a girl could ever have – thank you for choosing me, my beautiful Sally B.